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Aug. 28th, 2016 @ 08:07 pm The Old Jedi Order had it coming.
ah, the fatally flawed Jedi philosophy.

"I will not use my powers for personal gain--" so you'll be a parasite on society, instead? Or eke out a living doing what you are only half-arsed at? It is not a sin or evil to get paid for what you are good at doing. In fact, morally coherent people recognize it as an imperative.

"I will not allow myself to feel fear or anger--" these are called psychopaths. No wonder every Sith for 10,000+ years came out of the ranks of the Jedi. Both the Jedi and the Sith have pathologically unhealthy views of human emotion, but the Sith at least do not deny or repress their emotions.

And yes, psychopaths. Consider the actions of the Jedi in the prequels.

Do good people steal away children from their mothers?

What kind of mentally healthy person tells you to shun form NO emotional bonds or connections with others? Does an emotionally healthy person look at a room full of child corpses and not have an emotional reaction, like Yoda did? Or encourages a man worried for his lover to REJOICE that she was going to die? Or use an army of CLONED SLAVES--- men who had their free will removed and their capacity for independent thought genetically removed--- as cannon fodder in a war? What kind of "order of the Light" discovers a planet ruled by crime lords and rife with slavery, and DOESN'T return with an army to purge it? Is it mentally normal for a boy to be rescued from slavery, and then NOT return to free his mother for over a decade... because his masters told him to purge all 'worldly connections?'

How can they revere a Force created by Life and Love and that binds together all living things-- and then steal their 'acolytes' from their families as mere infants and train them their entire lives to their emotions, abhor love, and sever all binding connections with others?

We lock people up in padded rooms with that kind of soulless lack of empathy.

The fundamental failure of the Jedi was assuming that because the Sith were bad, that THEY were the good guys.

It's far more likely that the Force was restoring balance not by ending the Sith but by purging the galaxy of the corrupt, emotionally stunted and sociopathic cult known as the Jedi Order like cutting out a cancerous tumor.

Of course, without fail will come the commenters whose counter argument is little more than "they don't really mean that." In spite of the Jedi Order BEHAVING precisely like that for the entire prequel. Even in the original trilogy Yoda and Obi-wan were no prizewinners. They dumped Luke on a desert slave planet and left him to live in hardscrabble poverty, lied to him, kept vital information from him, and ramrodded him through combat training in mere weeks (that strangely enough used to take Jedi padawans their entire childhood) all to use him as a weapon to kill the Emperor and Vader.... and then when he slipped the leash, immediately made plans to go try and use his sister, next. "Don't worry, there's another we can use--" conniving little bat-eared frog.
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pestering
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From:caddan
Date:August 29th, 2016 01:00 pm (UTC)
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I'm half-remembering a quote that you like to bring up, which would be relevant here. Something about how being oppressed or controlled by a "good" person is worse, because they think they are doing it for your own good.
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From:deckardcanine
Date:August 29th, 2016 06:51 pm (UTC)
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be 'cured' against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals." --C.S. Lewis
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From:rhjunior
Date:August 29th, 2016 08:02 pm (UTC)
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There's irony in the latter half of the quote: C.S. Lewis never foresaw that there would come a day when the Self Anointed would DENY help to the mentally, emotionally, and even physically sick and consider themselves more compassionate for it.

Remember the homeless problem? Know how it got started? When "compassionate" liberals who sat through one too many screenings of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and basically forced the insane asylums and sanitariums to dump millions of mentally disturbed people on the street.

Or consider Bruce Jenner. A man who mutilated himself to the applause and accolades of the "compassionate"!

This folly is everywhere: denial of discernment. Proclaiming in heroic tones that there is no "right" or "wrong", therefore nobody really has anything "wrong" with them. So, blaspheming the name of compassion, they not only refuse to save the man on the ledge but climb out to help give him a push....

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From:whitetail
Date:August 30th, 2016 11:42 am (UTC)
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Has Jenner actually undergone gender reassignment surgery? Last I heard there were still some important bits of Bruce left dangling on Caitlyn.

I googled it but I can't find anything conclusive.

Edited at 2016-08-30 11:42 am (UTC)
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From:rhjunior
Date:August 30th, 2016 07:59 pm (UTC)
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And, do we really need to know the EXACT details? :P
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From:whitetail
Date:August 30th, 2016 08:20 pm (UTC)
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No, not the exact details, but you said he mutilated himself. I'm just asking for proof of your claim, as I am unconvinced of its veracity.
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From:crazyredemu
Date:September 3rd, 2016 07:33 pm (UTC)
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He added boobs
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From:whitetail
Date:September 3rd, 2016 07:40 pm (UTC)
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True. :) I think he may also have had the 'tracheal shave' to remove the adam's apple. But it's really what's 'down there' that makes a man a man or a woman a woman, IMO. All else is mere affectation.

Anyway, this really is off-topic to RH's post, so I think we should leave it at that. :)
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From:deckardcanine
Date:August 29th, 2016 06:56 pm (UTC)
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I think part of the problem is that Lucas took inspiration from eastern philosophy without fully integrating it. Buddhism, for instance, advises you to kill passions, but not people.

Another problem is that he hadn't planned the whole thing from the start. When we first saw Luke in a desert dystopia, Lucas probably hadn't figured on how he got there.
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From:rhjunior
Date:August 29th, 2016 07:54 pm (UTC)
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The only way it would have been worse is if he HAD fully integrated it. It's no accident that nations steeped in Buddhism dragged behind Christendom by a thousand-year gap.
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From:deckardcanine
Date:August 29th, 2016 08:50 pm (UTC)
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The question is, did they mind?
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From:rhjunior
Date:August 29th, 2016 09:54 pm (UTC)
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If you were a beggar in Calcutta, and never knew that anything was or COULD be better, would you mind? Maybe not. But we would, and should.

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From:deckardcanine
Date:August 29th, 2016 10:30 pm (UTC)
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My point was more that those who adhered to the religion would know they were poor and still not mind. In theory.
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From:benschachar_77
Date:September 5th, 2016 08:00 pm (UTC)

Quibbles

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"I will not allow myself to feel fear or anger--" these are called psychopaths."

No, psychopaths are incapable of human empathy the jedi are just espousing self-control.

"What kind of mentally healthy person tells you to shun form NO emotional bonds or connections with others? Does an emotionally healthy person look at a room full of child corpses and not have an emotional reaction, like Yoda did? Or encourages a man worried for his lover to REJOICE that she was going to die? Or use an army of CLONED SLAVES--- men who had their free will removed and their capacity for independent thought genetically removed--- as cannon fodder in a war? What kind of "order of the Light" discovers a planet ruled by crime lords and rife with slavery, and DOESN'T return with an army to purge it? Is it mentally normal for a boy to be rescued from slavery, and then NOT return to free his mother for over a decade... because his masters told him to purge all 'worldly connections?'"

1.) The idea is to recognize that no life is more or less deserving than any other and to put the greater good ahead of petty tribalism.
2. The jedi are stoic.
3.)The clones weren't commissioned by the jedi but simply a jedi and also a Sith. The jedi needed the manpower to fight a droid army and decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth.
4.)The kind that isn't omnipotent and realizes Tattooine is so far out of the way and so vast and inhospitable it would be a quagmire of epic proportions not to mention how busy they must be with the entire rest of the galaxy to look over and makes the utilitarian decision to focus on holding onto what they can actually defend and police with their severely limited resources.

To further elaborate Jedi are for all intents and purposes superhuman. It's understandable that they might want to monitor force users if only because if they didn't someone else (with less decent intentions) would or said force user could use the power irresponsibly.

Edited at 2016-09-05 09:42 pm (UTC)
From:auron3991
Date:September 25th, 2016 12:17 pm (UTC)

Re: Quibbles

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On the first point, you are wrong. There is a difference between striving to acknowledge one's emotion while being able to keep a clear head and striving to not feel it in the first place. The former is about being able to function in high stress situations and allows for normal human development. The later is about stunting your own growth and destroys people.