Spleen Squeezin's

I wonder if those are the right questions. Perhaps it is a matter of wanting to be, as far as they are concerned, above the humans they see. It doesn't take much to despise humanity. A bit of watching the news might be plenty. Direct experience with mistreatment would certainly add to that. Suddenly some mythology, which they will write or rewrite to their ideal, never mind any evidence, is very appealing.

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Although if you read the document </a></b></a>rhjunior linked to, all the way through, there's nothing in there about hating humanity. Nothing in there about "Man is evil, evil, evil" (as Ralph writes in response to </a></b></a>penh below). I know a few Otherkin, and they are definitely not the sad pathetic basket cases Ralph is talking about.

True, there are people who can't get along with the rest of the world, and some of them find their way into the Otherkin community. They also find their way into communities of furries, SF fans, cartoon fans, Renfesters, pretty much any fandom in existence... heck, there've been several brilliant mathematicians and scientists who were notoriously contentious.

Otherkin may be a strange belief system, but there's nothing inherently misanthropic about it.

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You have to understand that Ralph sees exactly and only what he wants to see. I mean, it's true of everyone that we tend to unconsciously translate our perceptions through our own personal set of worldview filters, but Ralph seems to be an extreme case. It's possible, of course, that when he props up these wildly distorted straw men so he can strut and fret as he knocks them down, he's just looking to score easy rhetorical points. But he's so persistent that I've begun to believe that's how he really sees the world. Scary thought, eh?

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I dont think they hate being human, but rather want someone more than there day to day exsitance. They want to feel like they are part of something biger, that they have some sort of purpose.

All in all it seems very harmless. If it bothers you too much, think of them as roleplayers that are always in character.

I suspect some people take part in it, just solely as a intellental (please exuse my spelling) exerise.

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I found out about Otherkin a couple years ago on an email tip, and took a look at their sites. (Punch the word into a search engine sometime.) From those observations, I found the following patterns:

1) I don't see much difference between them and furry fandom's "Astral Spirit Yiffy-poos trapped in Evil Hy000000man bodies" -- they just went with mythicals instead of real-life critters.

2) Their "recovered memories" are remarkably similar, like they've been comparing notes behind the scenes: "In a prior incarnation I was an elf/dragon/ooneycorn/pegasus/faerie in this perfect Faerie Summerland of The Goddess and everything was Perfect In Every Way. Then the Evil Humans came with their Evil Dead God on a Cross and the Burning Times Began...."

(Note: this fits the first half of the Grievance Culture pattern -- "Once we were Lords of the Earth in a Perfect Golden Age, but then THEY took it all away from us...". All that is missing is the ending call for payback.)

3) When I found actual photos of Otherkins' "present incarnations" on their sites (as opposed to the Wendy Pini/Terrie Smith-style elf drawings of their "prior incarnations"), they all seemed to be female, thirty-something, and GROSSLY overweight (as in spherical).

(According to fanzine authors I've talked two, this physical description (thirtysomething female spheroid) also fits "Slashies" -- fans/writers of spoogy gay fanfics like Kirk-slash-Spock, Cagney-slash-Lacey, Starsky-slash-Hutch, Han-slash-Luke, Baloo-slash-Kit, Babs-slash-Fifi...)

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Uhm most slash-fanfic writers would be VERY put out by that. Considering most of us are in our twentys or forties. I've found VERY few slash writers in their 30's. They simply don't have the time.

And slash fics are in pretty much all fandoms. Not just those above, which are actaully rare to find now. And I've NEVER seen Baloo slash Kit. No one I've talked to as very even heard of someone that would write THAT.

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>And I've NEVER seen Baloo slash Kit. No one I've talked to as very
>even heard of someone that would write THAT.

I've seen it. Plus Talespin porn with Becky as prostitute or child-molester. Artist was careful not to sign his/her/its name to it.

(Some years ago, some buds & I had an idea for a what-if Talespin crossover, where we could go into their universe, "translating" from human to our fursonas. One of us wanted to "enlighten" Talespin's Thirties Pulp world with the Sexual Revolution a la Furry Fandom. Didn't stop to figure that with the moral code and wild coincidences of a Thirties pulp universe, his collection of Talespin porn would definitely wind up where Baloo and Becky would see it. Result: Baloo beats would-be sexual revolutionary like a gong, throws him off the pier. Then it's Becky's turn -- beat him like a gong, throw him off the pier. (Man, that she-bear is strong for her size...) He flees to Louie's, discovers you can outrun Pratt & Whitney but you can't outrun Ma Bell. Louie beats him like a gong, throws him off his pier...)

Ditto the Babs-slash-Fifi. Saw that in some bootleg portfolio or yiffy sketchbook years ago, still remember it as though it was yesterday. Not enough alcohol in the world to get that image out of my head....

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Yuck. Let me tell you most GOOD slash writers, wouldn't get within hunderd feet of that stuff. Please do not compare trash like that to most slash writers.
Not all slash is just sex sex sex sex, really good slash can have no sex, but I good soild storeline. Which I would think would be the point.

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You certainly DO get some interesting links once in a while. You also disapprove of most of them. Well, it's yer blog.

IMHO, if someone wants to wear a FURSUIT I'm not going to stand in thier way.

I actually like that there are such communities and are growing larger. This goes to my own transhuman aspirations. I don't walk around in a robot suit (except maybe some future haloween) but I'm patiently waiting and watching as technology rapidly develops. A community like this will make such a move CHEAP because of the thousands of people who want REAL elf ears or to be turned into the half-human half-animal of their choice. (with a simple retroviral injection, versus years of surgery) I'd have to like capitalism then, because many people demanding such techniques would provide fertile ground for competition and innovation which would lower the price considerably.

What is even better is that if there is a world full of Dr. Moreau characters, more conservative 'transhumans' like myself who just want life extension and will make their main 'shells' look human will go totally UNNOTICED:-) As people like you doubtless go to the engineers of such creations and say "I'd like to speak with the devil. You seem to be on terms with him..." (movie ref) mere modified brains in robot bodies will look like just a modern version of someone using a wheelchair or crutches, especially if they did it to escape the ravages of age.

Maybe I'm wrong in my assumption, Ralph. If it became possible to get a minimally painful retroviral injection that would turn you into a LITERAL "Bear Man" would you take it?
I'm assuming in this question it's a decade or so in the future and this has become a possible procedure, with others already having done this years ago and the chance of an embarrasing/horrific 'accident' minimal and reversable.

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People come in all kinds, so this kind of thing is inevitable.
We have a responsibility to ourselves to be as entertained as possible by them.
All the world is a stage.

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Bah. You'll hear no argument from me, RH. Honestly.
If these people think humans are so terrible, perhaps they oughta try taking some responsibility and helping to change the state of the world, instead of going off to la-la land and claiming they're not part of it.

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Are people really becoming so alienated, so self-despising, so lacking in self esteem and chronically misanthropic that they've decided to believe that all humans, even new-born infants, are stained with terrible sin? So hideously stained, in fact, that unless they profess eternal alleigance to an invisible man who lives in the sky, their own creator will condemn them to an eternity of torment and torture beyond imagining?

Who the hell taught these people to loathe humanity? Who convinced them that they were so worthless that they had to delude themselves into believing in mythical creatures in order to feel any self-respect? How in God's name does anyone get so radically divorced from reality?

Let he who is without a belief system cast the first stone, Ralph.

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Any thread on this LiveJournal will attract Christian-bashing within the first ten posts.

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Perhaps I should subtitle my posts for the clue-impaired. Far be it from me to bash Christians, of whom my parents are but two sterling examples. Not to mention my late great-aunt, whose palpable aura of peace and acceptance as she lay dying in the hospital was as big a comfort to me as her faith was to her.

No, I just find it absurd and amusing to see a proponent of a faith-based belief system mocking, belittling, ridiculing, or just plain gawking at a proponent of a different faith-based belief system. For every Christian laughing at UFO cultists for their lame New Age delusions, there's a UFO cultist laughing at Christians for their lame old-fashioned delusions. All right, so that's not literally true, given the relative numbers, but you get the point. Then again, who knows? A thousand years from now, Elvis worship may be the norm. Forgive me, O King, for I ain't nothin' but a hounddog.

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The obligatory Christian Bashing session, right on schedule! Yaaaaaaaaay! Give penh his scooby snack and obligatory pat on the head. Don't get too close, folks, he hasn't been housebroken quite yet and he tends to fling poo.

This comparison was, of course, inevitable. Take delusionals to task for their gibberish and someone will make an attempt to equate their schizophrenia with an actual theology.

So let's take it by the numbers, okay?

1) Christianity, and Judaism before it, build their beliefs and doctrines around a single, central authority... the holy scriptures. For Judaism, the Talmud and Old Testament; for Christians, the Old and New testaments combined.

"Otherkin" base their beliefs and doctrines around fairyland as portrayed in the latest Mercedes Lackey novel.... and that's when they're actually attempting to be internally consistent. As per their own manifesto, any damned thing goes-- even "furry" characters, for God's sake.

2)The history of the Bible is grounded in actual, concrete locations, historical periods, and persons. Archaeologists have used the "stories" in the bible to unearth lost cities. Likewise the references in the scriptures to historical figures have been repeatedly confirmed in archaeological research.

Otherkin "history" is rooted in places, people, and creatures for which there is absolutely no material evidence whatsoever-- not so much as a single fossilized dragon tooth, embalmed elf, or stuffed and mounted unicorn; not a single crumbling fairy castle or rusting mythical sword. They can't even find their "ancestral homelands" on a map.

3) The Christian faith is composed of millions of individuals over thousands of years who have found a common consensus about the commonality of their experiences, the material evidences they have witnessed, and the veracity of the beliefs they espouse. They are constantly warned by their own theology to "test the spirits," and to reject those that conflict internally, and contradict the handed-down word of God. The Christian faith has been subjected to two millenia of field testing, and has endured-- and more of note, the civilizations that have adopted Judeo-Christian principles have grown and thrived---while other religions have fallen to their own internal contradictions, and the nations that adopted their moral principles have remained stuck in primitivism and barbarity.

The Otherkin faith is that no matter your beliefs, no matter how internally contradicting they are or lacking in any external proof, no matter how damned flat out ridiculous they are, don't worry, we'll shoehorn them in with the rest. Everything is valid--- except objectivity, of course.

5) The Christian worldview is that man, though beloved of God, is deeply flawed (and if you doubt that, I refer you to the nearest newspaper) and in need of His redemption.... and that through Jesus Christ's grace and sacrifice human beings can restore their lost fellowship with Him.

The Otherkin worldview is that man, well, sucks. Man is a plague and a cancer on Mother Gaia. Man is evil, evil, evil. Especially those dirty witch-and-elf persecuting Christian Humans. And aren't you glad that you're not really one of them? You're spiritually superior to them by birthright.

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Do you think you could maybe stoop to show a little respect in your replies? Would it be that difficult? "Scooby" is capitalized, for God's sake. He may be a fictional dog, but he deserves the same dignity you'd grant to John Q. Public or Frau Dingsbums. Whether "snack" deserves capitalization depends, I suppose, on whether you're offering a "Scooby Snack(tm)" or merely a snack intended for Scooby.

Talking dogs aside, it's very strange. I know you can read, because you're responding to the same subject as my post. You didn't go off criticizing meatloaf, or insisting that Bigfoot can't drive. And yet you obviously aren't actually comprehending what I'm writing. It doesn't matter how grounded in history your particular belief system is. It's still open to the same criticisms you scornfully heap on others. You don't think the more eloquent Otherkin can pile on the questions about Christianity? There are whole books out there just waiting for some eager young fellow with time on his hands to pillage for page after page of quotes. I just hope I'll be elsewhere that week.

I'd think someone who professes to be a Christian would have better things to do than take smug delight in trashing other people's beliefs. Of course, I've noticed that you seem to find it much more important to be better than someone else than to simply be good, so I suppose it's just par for the course with you.

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Unfourntely, most of you have seen the bad side of furries and these other-kins types. Becuase like in all thinks, the idiots usally make the news

I know a good amount of furries, and I only know of one that thinks of humans as 'evil'. And even she just thinks of it more as some human behavior is 'evil'.

Just because someone wants to live or belive a differnt way, or belive they are some other being in human form, doesn't mean they hate humans. And it doesnt mean they think human are evil. Sure there are some that do.

But HELL there are people that dont do any of that stuff that think human's are evil scum of the earth.

Is this something that should be taught in schools? Hell no. But if grown adults want to do this stuff, who the hell cares?

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... why not just send me an e-mail? It's in my profile, after all. *smilez*

I certainly do not loathe humanity - just the bottom thirty percent that blur the line between chimp and man. You work Retail, too - tell me you haven't gazed into "Zimbu the wonder monkey"'s stupid face from time to time and wondered how "it" got dressed and wandered into your store ... maybe that's how the "Retail" trade got its name - from customers that put THE MONKEY TAIL BACK ON.

By the way, are you giving up the comics? It hasn't updated in quite awhile.

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The comics are on hiatus until the first week of November. Ralph had a bit of trouble with his scanner (read: it's dead, Jim) and had to get a new one. *shrugs* Not too much of a problem; I bet there are webcomics that have been gone for far longer for other reasons both far more and far less serious. Still, I feel a bit deprived of my weekly humor. =\ There are other good webcomics, but darn it, they're not all the same!

Oh, and about that "bottom thirty percent" thing? You do realize that makes you look like an elitist jerk, right?

Check the mirror; you've got some Social Darwinism stuck in your teeth...

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QUOTED:
Oh, and about that "bottom thirty percent" thing? You do realize that makes you look like an elitist jerk, right?

Check the mirror; you've got some Social Darwinism stuck in your teeth...

Hmmm.... a few notes for you:

1. The statistical difference between the average IQ of a man and that of a chimp is about thirty points. If not for language and culture, comparitively, I wouldn't have anything in common with a third of humanity. It's not elitism so much as simple frustration.
   
   
2. I am, publicly, reliably, a Social Darwinist. It is my one Republican trait.

Here's a witty little partial ditty, sung to the tune of "Sandra Dee" from the movie "Grease":
"Ook at me, I'm hu-man-ity ... liv-ing in me-dioc-rity"

I am no rocket scientist, but fer cryin' out loud, staring into the dull eyes of some people just makes me wonder. Did we really make it out of the trees, or are some of us still there? Some days it is like being trapped in a much-gentler version of "Dawn of the Dead" - except they're not after brains. Quite the opposite! Some of the general public are such utter sheeple, such dull cattle, that I despair. Then I remember the great lights, those who exceed my own capabilities many times over, and the darkness fades a bit.

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Okay, couple points here...

First off, did you ever think that it's because of the school system that such idiots exist? Any psychologist and person with an ounce of common sense will tell you that all kids do better in an enriched environment. And yet, we are expected to give our children up to people whose credentials we are not to question and risk stunting their intellectual growth. To put it shortly, the school system is designed to produce idiots for Wal-Mart and Ford's factories. Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, if you're not for better education, you're not for the common man.

Second, where do you get off calling Social Darwinism a "Republican" trait? Neither Hitler nor Stalin were Republicans. They were elitists who felt they knew what was best for their country and the Ignorant Masses. Pardon me if I'm wrong in your eyes, oh Enlightened One, but that seems to be more of a Democratic and liberal trait.

Bottom line: people will only be cattle as long as the elitists who view them that way keep the system that dumbs them down in place.

Now pardon me why I find a way out of this system so I can get my life in order...

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Well if you are going to point a finger at the schools then by all means you need to point it at the parents to....

I for one grew up in a small and quite horrible school(This is not bashing small schools because I've been in good ones that were small). For the first 10 years of my school, preschool, kinder, prefirst, and then 1-8 I had a rare time of decent teacher cept for a couple and any new ideas I had were crushed and the social enviroment was deplorable because I walked on my toes alone but such are CHILDREN now and before.

The difference on why my imagination and will to succeed remain bright however is my parents were always encouraging my goals, dreams, ideals, and more importantly my ability to think independantly and with reason and don't give me that lame excuse of time away because my dad would spend 3 months drilling in Venezuela come back and work for another company full time for 3 months and my mom worked to. Its still possible but when it comes to parenting people have just gotten lazy and they rely on the government to do everything they should be doing.

My kid watches to much tv so the schools should encourage him to read. Try just moving the tv to your room instead of the living room like my parents did? My kid doesn't have a good work ethic so lets make a class for it. My parents sent me to help my uncle with his farm or lawn work. Drugs are in school and always will be so teach him not to use? My parents taught me about drugs and sex before I entred kindergarten because you know the one kid who knows is going to tell them anyway or stumble upon it.

Educate and pay attention to children yourself and stop expecting the schools to teach you everything in life because its NOT GOING TO HAPPEN and I'm tired of anyone no matter thier political alignment saying otherwise. True values and independant thought start at home with only a minor few exceptions.

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>To put it shortly, the school system is designed to produce idiots
>for Wal-Mart and Ford's factories.

In Allentown, PA, they were designed to produce steelworkers and coal miners, and nothing else. Did a lot of good once the steel mills & coal mines shut down. (I got this directly from a Lehigh Valley Public School casualty who's now grubbing for matches.)

Ditto for Redding, CA. There the schools were to turn out sawmill workers and nothing else. Except all the sawmills are gone.

>Second, where do you get off calling Social Darwinism
>a "Republican" trait? Neither Hitler nor Stalin were Republicans.

There are actually three main branches of Social Darwinism. All preach "survival of the fittest" and "extinction to the unfit" in a ruthless competition to the death:

1) "Yuppie-ism", the original form. Here the competition to the death is between individuals, with the "fittest" rising to the top. In the Gilded Age of 19th Century America (where success is measured by money), the rich are obviously the Fit, and their money and power are the obvious signs of that. The poor are poor because they are unfit failures and should properly "die and reduce the surplus population." (Actually seems a extremist secular mutation of Calvinist predestination; specifically the idea that the prosperous were God's Elect, which spawned the Protestant Work Ethic. The difference is Darwinism substituted impersonal natural laws for a personal God who gives a damn. After 2000 years of Christian influences, we've forgotten what the old Gods of Nature were really like...)

2) Marxism/Communism. Here the competition to the death is between economic systems evolving towards a future Utopia. One system triumphs and evolves, the others all die off (either naturally or with help from the winning system). Since the System is the organism competing and evolving, the individual is no more than a cell in the body of the System. ("You will be assimilated. Resistance is Futile. You Will Be Assimilated...")

3) Naziism (either the original German Fascism or its Arab descendant Bathism). Here the competition to the death is between Race and Race, with the natural Master Race (at a higher level of evolution) naturally driving Inferior Races (everybody else) into extinction. Like Marxism, the individual is but a cell in the competing organism, in this case The Race.

One similarity about all of the above: Like a false prophet telling the King whatever the King wanted to hear, all three forms of Social Darwinism flatter the powerful by telling them they are The Fit, The Most Highly Evolved, The Future Superman. It tells rich yuppies that they're on top because they're the richest and the fittest; it tells Communist societies that they're the fittest because they're the Most Higly Evolved System; it tells Nazis that they're The MOst Highly Evolved Master Race.

Always what the powerful want to hear from their Yes-men. Sort of like a Darwinist version of "Divine Right". Like "Men of Sin" everywhere, appealing to a cosmic authority (God, Bible, Darwin, or Nature) to justify whatever they were going to do anyway.

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Correction: Naziism was not about race, but about NATIONAL SOCIALISM. THe idea being that individuals owned the means of production--- but government *controlled* all the means of production.
Racism got tacked in by Hitler because a scapegoat always makes the way smoother.

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"I feel a bit deprived of my weekly humor"

Ditto on my part, Jack, 8-Bit Theater, BobandGeorge, VG Cats are all good comics but they don't have the same charm as Mr. Hayes' comics. But don't worry, after he brings back the comic it'll hit off with a bang. ;) I know, because my good ol' Bo Kiana will make a return to Malarkey County ;D

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...has something to say about it.

http://www.ranting-gryphon.com/index2.htm

Go to the MP3 rant Animal Spirits and ask yourself if this doesn't apply to Otherkin.

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Let's see... he's ranting about weres who criticize other weres by saying that you can't have an animal spirit that's not native to the place you were born in, and he calls it an "adult-vocabulary way of saying 'Iii'm better than yooou are'". Frankly, the "ridiculing other people's spiritual beliefs" aspect of it applies more to Ralph than any Otherkin I happen to know.

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not every Otherkin out there is a human-basher elitist with a persecution complex. not every Otherkin is a 'mythic.' you seem to be hitting on the posers and wannabes more than the 'real' Otherkin.

if you want an example of poser vs. real, I can give you an example of a real situation:

RealKin claims to be a Polymorph.

FemPoser claims to be an "alicorn," and FemPoser cannot grasp the fact "alicorn" means the horn of a unicorn and NOT a winged unicorn.

MalePoser claims to be a dragon, a gryphon, and a female kitsune.

FemPoser falls for MalePoser and finds out he considers himself a dragon. FemPoser suddenly says she was a dragon cursed into the form of an "alicorn."

MalePoser and FemPoser are a RealKin's house. FemPoser starts convulsing and claims something is psychicly attacking her. MalePoser says he can Feel something 'attacking' FemPoser.

RealKin sits back and groans because she knows FemPoser is seizure-prone, then rolls eyes as MalePoser leaves FemPoser on her back as FemPoser starts choking on her own tongue, then RealKin forces FemPoser to sit up so she doesn't die and haunt RealKin's house because RealKin doesn't want to chance getting the ghost of an idiot haunting her house.

RealKin knows Otherkin is part of her spirituality, and her religion is something all together different. RealKin knows she isn't better than 'mundanes,' just a little different spiritually.

The PoserPair think Otherkinism is the Beginning and Ending of their religion, altho throw in the names of a few powerful deities just to make it sound more interesting.

what that proves? there's a big difference between the 'real deal' and the more vocal posers and wannabes.

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